Mandatory minimum training for fire and rescue

well.. call me dumb… or whatever.. but I was a rube thinking that we already did this but just specific to each separate VOL group.

The more we find out – the worse it sounds.

And it’s very unfortunate because the heritage of the Vols is family and community – for members of the community to safeguard and protect the community.

I just don’t know how we could have an effective training program – without knowing the status of the individuals.

Simple things like knowing what training to schedule and how often would seem to be driven by – knowledge of who had training and who did not.

And I’ll accept Monday morning quarterbacking criticism from those in the trenches trying to do the right thing.

Easier said that done …

We appear to have some strong leadership now at the county level and perhaps that was the missing ingredient…

I have an opinion that each of us – no matter who we are or what we do as a career or as a volunteer ….likes to feel good about what we do – i.e. likes to know that we are doing a good job….

I realize this is sort of a Boy Scoutish idealism but I still believe that most folks want to do a good job and I believe this is true of the Vols.

I just have three (3) very simple questions. (1) Why isn’t there a certain place for the storage of these training records (central depository). The lack of such a depository is yet another prime example of very poor management. (2) Why does the county have people on our fire and rescue units that fail to meet the basic training requirements including expired certifications. (3) Such basic failures wouldn’t be allowed “anywhere” else, why is it allowed in Spotsylvania?

As a “TAXPAYER” I expect more from County Administration and the Chief of Fire and Rescue.Get your act together or look for employment elsewhere. This taxpayer is tired of reading about managers who fail to manage in Spotsylvania County.

Folks…what we are finally seeing, thanks in no small part, to DT’s reporting and Mr. Barnes taking the “bit” in his teeth, is that things were no where near what we thought they were. The “chaos” was infinitely worse. In short, it wasn’t WHAT you knew, it was WHO you knew.

Hopefully, the new changes being implemented will eliminate this kind of mentality forever here in Spotsylvania.

poor writing skills… thank god I study science.

If the “acceptable answers” to my questions can’t rise above “even more excuses” and a “business as usual” willingness to accept 2nd best, then WE have the answers to my questions. How about yours?

Just because “others” don’t do it any better than Spotsy, is NOT an acceptable REASON why Spotsy and its citizen population should expect less of its safety management, County Administration or it governing body of elected officials.

Doug Barnes was around 10 years ago, and 20 years beyond that. The same can be said of members on the Spotsylvania County BOS. What is it about NOW that is so much different from THEN (10 years ago) or has the price of a life been depreciated and marginalized to “we’ll try to do better next time and hope to be qualified to do so, but only after “another committee meeting is held.”

Where and with whom you wish to invest your trust with your life is an individual decision that rest squarely on your shoulders, but not the publics right to chose how they wish safety management to be conducted for ALL its county/local citizens.

We waited 10 years, so what is another 10 years to get it right, or is tomorrow to soon to do anything about public safety or someone elses last breath?

Why is Doug Barnes having to show up at a meeting with Fire and Rescue to address BASIC business principles with 4 different Fire and Rescue PRINCIPLES who can’t even manage a calendar of public proficiency or accreditation in fire and rescue staffing? Has Doug Barnes been placed in charge of change, or is that the shared responsibility of 4 different agencies that can’t respond as one to the safety needs of its county population?

Who’s really in charge, or better still, who can bring 10 years of “business as usual” out of the muck and mire of mediocrity and put it ahead of a single lost life? If he or she has a name, it’s not Doug Barnes, but IT is the citizens of Spotsylvania County.

If members of this blogging community want to sit and WAIT for change, maybe WE should invest in something more than just 10 more years of wishful thinking.

Ramshead,
EMT-E and ST are not considered, and should not be considered ALS in the eyes of the county. We don’t call a Nurse a Doctor just because they have more training than a Medical Assistant.
Fredtastic,
These problems were neither hidden nor unknown. Those in leadership have chosen to ignore these problems in order to play favorites, politics, and keep the status quo. These problems are not suddenly appearing because they’re just now being discovered; it just took this long for the public to finally care about the delivery of service and professionalism they werre receiving. The management of the Department of Fire, Rescue, and Emergency Management, a combined system of career and volunteer agencies (as per county code) has failed to deliver the best possible service to the citizens; there is no reason to begin a blame game because everyone is responsible: the Tax payers, the County Administrator, the Board of Supervisors, and the Chiefs of the agencies; people have put personal agendas far ahead of the true needs of the County and its Citizens. This is echoed in the fact that the most important recommendations from this 1999 Fire/EMS study were never implemented, simply ignored out of convenience.
There was a goal of 24/7 staffing in every fire anc EMS station set TO BE MET last year; was it met? Of course not did anything get changed to fix the problem? Of course not, they delayed the accomplishment another year just like they’ve delayed or ignored every other change.

the county doesn’t recognize trauma units anymore except the old school dispatchers, but thats if they remember when a unit marks up if it marks up as trauma. now it’s only rescue or medic.

So I have a question now….

Whens the protest? or the demonstration? I’ll be in town the 14th- 27th if anyone wants to do a sit in or a rally.

Getitstraight ~~

First off, There are no such thing as an EMT-ST. If you mean, CT, then you are correct. The EMT-CT level got merged into the EMT-I(Intermediate) level. CT level EMTs do not exist anymore.

Secondly, if you knew anything about EMS, you would know that the EMT-E(Enhanced) is an ALS level certification. EMT-E personnel can dispense medications, start IV whether its via the venous system, or via IO – intraosseous (into the bone). The ONLY thing they can not do cardiac related care, such as EKG/12-leads and they can not dispense cardiac related medication(s).

So, if you think what they can do is not considered ALS, you obviously don’t know what your talking about.

“the county doesn’t recognize trauma units anymore except the old school dispatchers, but thats if they remember when a unit marks up if it marks up as trauma. now it’s only rescue or medic.”

huh? You obviouisly..nevermind..I will keep my mouth shut. Do you have any clue as to what your talking about?

“Whens the protest? or the demonstration? I’ll be in town the 14th- 27th if anyone wants to do a sit in or a rally. ”

If your not a full time resident, then why are you commenting on something that doesn’t concern you?

While Larryg shares with us his sentimental recall of days gone by in the service of Fire and Rescue, what else is being added to this current issue on F&R staff proficiency and accreditation, when he admits “I don’t really know” and then invites US to go looking for a percentage number, not otherwise or easily found in official F&R documents and has absolutely nothing to do with accountability of staff proficiency; whether Voluntary or Career.

Following this trail to nowhere, we are joined by DYOFT and MedicVA with all the latest TECHNO babble/jargon that’s meant to baffle US for want of a PUBLIC translation of what they just said and what relevance it has with the issue at hand.

When someone comes to your home and beats down your front door, CLAIMING he or she is there to save you, do you ask them for their credentials first, or is that something your COUNTY F&R agencies AND local government have already taken into ACCOUNT BEFORE sending their safty personnel out on emergency assignment?

Bill, you and Fredtastic missed the point by a mile. I too have a long history with Doug Barnes and nothing about him is mediocre. However, Doug will never be any better or accomplish anything more than mediocrity, when he is surrounded by assigned leadership that could’nt cut there way out of a wet paper bag in a tropical rain storm.

I want Spotsylvania County to become business proficient, without all the EXCUSES from those holding on to the rudder. These may be uncharted waters, but if its a little more wind in your sails you need, I think you’re going to need more than just another Commission, a few more politicians or an abundance of more lip service.

Just remember, Doug Barnes will never be any better than the people who report to him OR the local leaders he reports to. The same goes for the people who report to Doug. They will never be any better than what they are allowed to be, by their leaders. We can’t keep saying “I didn’t know”…when they should have known. “That’s their business, not ours”….when it’s about everyone in the county being put at risk because no one wants to be held accounatable in those worst case senarios.

Rather than denying there is a problem, when there is, try acknowledging and encouraging those, even if its a swift kick in the pants, to get the job done using best practice policies instead of second best.

Marty, I am not sure what point I missed.

I have never met Barnes in my life. I have had a couple of email contacts since last February.

When all this F&EMS business broke last winter with the death of Ms. Hill, I was very, very skeptical that the management in this county would succeed in the reorganization effort that I felt was needed. However, as I see it, Barnes took the “bit” in his mouth and forged ahead. I suspect that there is still resistance from some corners, but Barnes seems to to be determined.

Now, I realize that you would like to “cluster bomb” the whole management team in the county and start over. Well, I admit that there are times when my frustration borders on that level too, but I think we ought to sit back, take a deep breath, and let this whole reorganization sort itself out.

Have to ask myself and maybe you guys why I would want to “cluster bomb” anything that moves in Spotsylvania County government or its special interest GROUPS? The only reason I’m showing up is because Dan Telvock is enamored with the TRUTH about F&R and what’s really been going on behind closed for 10 years and doesn’t appear to be getting any better.

So, when I’m asked/invited to “sit back, take a deep breath, and let this whole reorganization sort itself out, why don’t we ask Dan Telvock/ FLS to freeze a couple frames of his reporting, like he did when a Chief came up AGAIN on charges and DAN closed his blog down for any comment from the public. Why? Because he was told to.

Sam invites me to “calm down and educate myself.”

What part of long standing poor business practices in County F&R does Sam think I didn’t get? What part of not knowing whether F&R personnel are certified or not, did I miss?

What does it matter to me or any other member of the public whether an EMT-B can or cannot be in charge of a unit with a certified Paramedic driving.?

What does it matter to me or any other citizen whether an AIC is a paramedic, or not, and the driver has no other EMT certification other than CPR, that unit is only a “Rescue Unit” with ALS capability? What’s with, “to be staffed as a ‘Medic’ Unit, the AIC must be an EMT-I/P and the driver must be at least an EMT-B.

So what part of this “techno-babble” serves me, or any other citizen in better understanding whether Volunteer or Carrier firefighters and emergency medical personnel assigned to any of the 4 DIFFERENT agencies is certified to perform their job or any assigned job, OR do we WAIT for our rescue team to work that out at the emergency scene?

Poor business practices I understand. How you wish to disguise, cover-up and obfuscate whether something is working or not, is a price someone is going to pay sooner or later.

My mind is made up, and would encourage others to take a second look at what could otherwise be another ten years for a COUNTY to make up its mind AGAIN, and AGAIN, and better still….AGAIN.

Well Marty you’re right ignorance is bliss. The fact that the citizens are only interested in screw-ups, criminal charges and death they can point to is simply amazing to me. You could careless as long as no one else says something is wrong with this picture. Gotcha.

Marty….Have you never heard of a “rhetorical” statement, i.e. “cluster bomb.”

I was led to make that statement because I am very hard pressed to find any statement you have ever made about Spotsy county BOS, CA, or senior staff and/or their actions that was not totally negative.

Surely, you are not blaming Dan T. for your negative attitudes?

Medic VA. I know of 4 people that run as trauma units. Tell me where in our computers it has “trauma” as a designation for an ambulance. You can call a E a medic all you want, and they are better than nothing, but if you’re having a cardiac problem, I didn’t see in our protocols that an E can follow ACLS.
Spotsy just hired their first EMT-E he graduates with this new class, great guy, should have just been an I since he has ACLS and PALS, but they don’t have a plan for him as a medic.

I do no longer live in spotsy, however I do still pay my car tax there (even though i should take advantage of the credit i get volunteering) and i have family that lives there. I spent 18 years growing up in that town and I saw the problems in the volunteer system. Sorry but when my dad who has cardiac issues goes down, i want ALS there. and by ALS i mean I or P. i will be on an ambulance some time that week i am home, i just really like a good protest.

And i love our dispatchers, a lot of them are volunteers, or have volunteered at some point. (6 is how many i recall, i know there is more though) and they do a great job making our life easy. You know its a good night when they give you the lay out of the scene for firefighting along with pre alerting additional resources. Thats just the same as us using the term sergeant in the volunteer sector.

All I want are some QRC’s staffed with ALS in the county during volunteer hours. Volunteers cannot fill that demand, nor should they be asked to with trying to staff 10 stations already. The county needs to step in to ensure that ALS is there for your family.

And that whole debate about a basic in the back while a medic drive, After looking at a patient and saying “this is bs” i would love to drive and let the bls person take it over, but I really hate driving an ambulance and will only do it if the other person is not EVOC and if the patient is critical thank god for firefighters because then one of them is usually evoc 2, or unstaff them to pull their driver because if he drove the fire truck he has to be certified. And yes, i would unstaff a fire truck in a heart beat if it meant providing ALS to a critical patient. But putting a BLS provider in the back still falls under the highest level of certification, so if they kill someone it will probably get a little sticky…

DYOFFT
Are you serious?! Are you and the rest of your leadership so disillusioned to believe that you don’t have to provide service to someone? Even someone with an elementary understanding of the law would be able to argue that! The concept you are describing is loosely based on the Good Samaritan laws which prevent someone from being liable because they are unable to provide care to a higher level based on circumstance. These do not apply to a crew that responds to a 911 call; you aren’t a layperson or a bystander, you are a health care provider and are fully expected to provide to the highest level possible; and since every ambulance in the county has ALS equipment on it, you are fully capable of providing ALS care. I challenge anyone to come back to me with caselaw or a written opinion from the State which states that an ALS provider does not need to provide care to an ALS patient because they’re “just the driver.” Please, show me.

David,
I don’t think so…he clearly states the fact that the ALS provider is only acting as a “driver/EMT-B” and that it is only abandonment if he assesses the patient.
If the “ALS provider does not act outside his [role as a 'driver/EMT-B'...], then there is no violation.”

They might be able to win the abandonment argument, but they sure as heck wouldn’t win the one on neglect.

Why don’t we all get out our Fire and Rescue dictionary and syllabus to see what these gentlemen are talking about and how this knowledge translates to best practices in the field of Fire Fighting and Emergency Medical Services.

Let’s all pay close attention to what the manual calls for when being attended by rescue personnel who are neither accredited, nor wish to drive an ambulance to the emergency scene.

How many F&R personnel, career or volunteer, does it take to screw in a light bulb, or at the very least, the light of day?

David,
You’re correct, but I’m talking about patients that need ALS. My discussion has nothing to do with a BLS patient. Your presumption is fundamentally flawed. Both providers have a duty to act because they respond to an emergency call for service. If the patient requires ALS and the ALS driver does not provide for them then there is failure to act. If harm is caused to the patient because of the failure to act and the injury was directly caused by that deviation, then there is negligence; simplified of course, but present nonetheless. You can’t ignore the fact that the driver is ALS just because he’s the driver.

One might argue that a nurse cannot provide ALS just because they’re a volunteer EMT and that is correct; because they are not licensed to do so. But the ALS driver is licensed to do so and is fully capable of providing the needed care to the patient.

I don’t think the public will accept (I know I won’t) any answers without proof of case-law to the contrary, or a written opinion from the Virginia Office of EMS.

And either way, it is COMPLETELY unethical to even try to argue the fact that an ALS patient shouldn’t receive ALS care when an ALS provider is present on the scene.

Marty,
ALS is Advanced Life Support. Meaning if the patient requires more than basic first aid or palliative care, they likely need ALS (chest pain, stroke, pain management, allergic reaction, difficulty breathing, etc). To give you an idea of best practices, or at least practices local to our region, Spotsylvania County is the only county on the I-95 corridor (and surrounding), border to border, that does not have 24-hour guaranteed ALS care; most have 1 per 12,000 residents or better. Now I may be wrong, but I thought Spotsylvania County was a little further along than Louisa and Caroline.

getitstraight ~

Let me try to clear up ANY confusion. You are correct, for the most part.

For calls that are deemed emergent, ie. chest pain/cardiac arrest, stroke, possible stroke, diabetec emergency, etc.. Not only is the ambulance dispatched, but also the FD. However, for a Stroke(CVA), there is nothing a paramedic or any other EMT can d other than haul ass to MWH.

If the patient is assessed, and ALS is then deemed necessary by the ALS provider, a firefighter who also has the EMT-B certification can drive. By doing that, the ambulance is then UPGRADED to a medic unit, and ALS care can then be administered.

But also, be advised, not ALL chest pain calls need ALS care. If I am with an EMT-B, and he/she doesnt feel comfortable with call, yes..by all means, I will take over patient care, and do whatever is necessary. I have held the FD on scene until I know the pt is stable and that their assistance is no longer needed. Other times, I have asked the FD or another ambulance to meet us somewhere so I can get another driver, since the patients condition had deteriorated.

We dont make the rules, and like you, I find it frustrating and at times, quite ridiculous. But, thats the way it is and we have to abide by them, until OEMS changes it.

Did that clear ANYTHING up?

When are we gonna see the minimum qualifications for the career staff, you promised us dan

Mr. Work,
As we do not know each other personally, the familiarity implied by addressing you with your first name goes against my upbringing.

Since my initial remarks were addressed to a single contributor, I saw no reason to define for general readers the acronyms that contributor used in the first place.

Regarding the unnecessary sarcasm on this topic, I stand by my previous statement. It is possible to discuss, even disagree, without resorting to insults and acerbic remarks. I have no interest in participating in a debate that doesn’t have courtesy and mutual respect for another’s opinion as it’s basis. Good day.