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Water systems in Spotsylvania County

The New York Times has chemical tests of most, if not all, water systems in the United States on their Web site

The Environmental Working Group collected all the data and shared it with the newspaper, which then wrote stories on the worsening pollution in water.

It shows that Spotsylvania County does have some interesting chemicals in the reservoirs but it is all within legal and health limits. 

Glenwood Mobile Home Park showed that it had some unhealthy levels of lead in the water supply. The amount is above health guidelines, yet it is still below the legal limits. 

The City of Fredericksburg’s water supply has an unhealthy amount of trichloracetic acid, a disinfection product. The amount is above health guidelines, yet it is still below legal limits. 

 

Lake Wilderness, Sec. 1-11 had unhealthy levels of radium 226 and radium 228, which is radioactive element. The amount is above health guidelines, yet it is still below legal limits.

Lake Wilderness section 12-18 had unhealthy levels of copper and total haloacetic acids. The amount is above health guidelines, yet it is still below legal limits.

 

 

Permalink: http://news.fredericksburg.com/spotsygovt/2009/12/18/water-systems-in-spotsylvania-county/

  • gramps

    I wonder, could this contamination be the result of a sinister plot hatched by GW Bush et al?

  • MAVRICKinc

    When do we start asking what the health guidelines for drinking water are, in Spotsylvania County, and the consequences of water quality that exceeds “HEALTH” guidelines, but less than LEGAL LIMITS? What comes when our daily consumption of drinking water exceeds legal limits?

    What’s the half-life of RADON, which is a natural
    ocurring source of radioactive elements that leach from the ground into our homes. We know what the destructive nature of smoking a pack a day, or just breathing in 2nd hand smoke is. Radon has 20 times the impact of cigarettes on our lungs.

    So, if Lake Wilderness has UNHEALTHY levels of radium, copper and haloacetic acids in its water system, how close is their system to exceeding LEGAL LIMITS? Same goes for Spotsylvania county and Fredericksburg.

    Just how much bottled water can we keep on hand for drinking sources, and let the rest go to watering lawns, washing down the car, and keeping our commode water within legal limits?

    No Bill, there’s no conspiracy. It doesn’t even have anything to do with our health care conditions over the next 20 years. Health guidelines are just that; GUIDELINES.

    When we exceed the health guidelines, waiting for the legal limit to be exceeded is like saying the Chesapeake Bay is just another watering hole and its health care condition rates an “F.”

    When it comes to exceeding “legal limits”, how does that translate to the death of marine life in the Bay to our consumption of drinking water that exceeds “health guidelines?”

    Maybe we can rate Glenwood Mobile Home Park as one of those algae blooms we hear so much about, that hug Virginia shores and makes for voluminous amounts river kill, that we humans can’t eat, but our wildlife can, without ever knowing the consequences of eating what’s left dead on shore, through our poor judgement and failure to act when our health guidelines are exceeded.

    So, what grade do WE get for not seeing the bigger picture that includes lots of critters who don’t know the first thing about health guidelines?

    As with hunting to hounds, there are still to many excuses being leveled by the hunter against those who would protest all the fun, sport, amusement comradery and pride the hunter takes from their playing fields, whether it on someone elses property or not.

    It has nothing to do with the clashing of cultures. Mankind has always been and will continue to be the predator (hunter) for as long as man took to make it ashore and declare war on anything or anyone who dared to question man’s existence, rights to flight and the laws of survival. We dance to our DNA every day. If you own a gun and/or a dog, the hunter in all of us will stand at the head of the class, and direct the rest of us to silence.

    Paybacks can be hell and mother earth is going to have the last word, whether we like it or not. Going along just to get along doesn’t cut it anymore.

    Just think of the Chespeake Bay as a monument to our indiffence to the health guidelines.

  • lgross

    one feels we should have (or not), what activities
    they should be involved in (or not), what rules
    and regs they put in place (or not), etc.

    We have folks worried about the government
    “controlling” our lives, being “intrusive”, wasteful,
    inefficient and not letting the private sector
    operate properly in a market economy.

    You might ask why these reports exist for
    instance. Do you think all these water suppliers
    just decided to provide the data – and they all
    agreed as to the content and format of the data
    they provided?

    do yo think that the Government should be
    “forcing” private and local governments to do this
    testing and reporting?

    When they do this are they not imposing
    “unfunded mandates” on Spotsylvania and even
    private enterprise?

    Shouldn’t everyone be free to decide if they want
    to buy or not the water being provided for a fee?

    so what say folks?

    Should the government be involved in setting
    health and legal standards for water and
    requiring water-providers to test their water and
    provide the results to the public?

    what gives the government the “right” to do this?

  • thjeffersonfan

    Lake Wilderness, Indian Acres, and other small lot psuedo-sales locations in Spotsylvania County have HORRIFIC water and sanitary conditions. Indian Acres was designed a campground, with a sanitary system that was not planned or implemented to serve as a 24/7-365 establishment. Should the County step in and assume control of failing systems in these communities (thereby dedicating county tax dollars to fixing others problems)?

  • lgross

    Dan’s blog entry pointed out (indirectly) that water can be perceived as “horrible” and still be “legal” and also meets the
    designated “health” standards.

    but I was also asking a question – in this day and time when many folks believe that the government is wasteful, inept, poking
    it’s nose where it should not be, and at times in this specific blog accused of acting improperly……

    ……. should the Fed/State govt be telling local counties and private water systems what water quality standards to meet and
    require them to test their water for contaminates and provide the results to the consumers?

    can’t we say that this is yet another case where the govt is imposing unfunded mandates on local govts and private businesses?

    … what is the basis for the govt to perform this role ?

    .. and if one believes that the govt SHOULD perform this role, why should the govt not also perform other similar roles ?

    As far as taking over systems – I believe there is a provision for doing that. Heckfire, some folks might think that Fawn Lake
    has a private water system but no… they have Spotsylvania-provided water (and sewer)…. so I supposed other areas of the
    county could legitimately ask if the county can provide water to Fawn Lake – why not their development – like Indian Acres?

    http://www.spotsylvania.va.us/emplibrary/4WastewaterCollection.pdf

  • gramps

    I can see that my friend, MGWork, has missed the intent of my original post here (Hmmmm…posted Dec 18, 2009 1:26 pm). That was a simple little “tongue in cheek” barb thrown at those that believe “everything that goes wrong” today is somehow the fault of GWB. I apologize for that. I do not believe there is any conspiracy afoot here.

    Do I think the Gov should be “forcing” private and local gov’s to do this testing and reporting? My answer depends on which Gov we are talking about. I believe the fed gov ought NOT be involved. Each State or Commonwealth has a perfectly capable Health Department to handle these matters.

    I took a long look at the reports and other info referenced in Dan’s post. The reports by the Environmental Working Group (EWG) were done because “they” felt that the EPA (a fed Agency) was not including adequate coverage for pollutants “they” felt were important. Yet the overall guidelines were EPA mandated guidelines. As far as I can determine the EWG were simply raising a point of contention they had with the EPA.

    There is nothing wrong with our water supply; these reports were simply an effort by another Washington based lobby to put pressure on the EPA.

  • lgross

    where did the data that the EWG use come from?

    Why did the EWG report it and not the EPA or the
    State?

    is this a situation where the Feds REQUIRE them
    to test for the contaminates but does not require
    them to disclose it and the EWG essentially went
    and got that data and disclosed it themselves?

    so.. where did the actual data come from and
    who required the testing for those contaminates?

    and if the EPA had not required it – would it have
    been done?

    what gives the State …OR the FEDS the RIGHT to
    REQUIRE this?

    If private and local govt systems are REQUIRED
    to do this testing – isn’t this an unfunded
    mandate?

  • gramps

    My point was/is that the EWG is a lobby org based in Washington. The EPA issues guidelines and rules to the states/commonwealths and they comply as required.

    The EWG does not like the fact that the EPA apparently disagrees with them on what constitutes polutants (or what polutants and amounts are dangerous). Hence the EWG contacts the states/commonwealths and gets their data and perhaps even water samples and looks for the polutants they feel are important and then they provide their report to the NY Times and “voila” we have an expose!

    I repeat…there is nothing wrong with the water in Spotsy. The EWG stuff is a lobbying effort.

  • lgross

    Why are the data for the same contaminates
    uniform across the country?

    what would ANY water provider test for the same
    contaminates – nationwide unless they were
    forced to by the EPA.

    I know the EWG is a lobby.. but do you think
    every single water system across the US tested
    for those contaminates on their own ?

    or do you think – that all 50 states had the same
    standards for testing contaminates?

    or do you think it is more likely that the EPA
    required the testing – nationwide?

    and if the EPA required the testing – why was it
    not reported until the EWG reported it?

    I’m not saying there is anything wrong with the
    water in Spotsy.

    I’m asking what the role of govt is in testing for
    those contaminates – and if it is a legitimate role
    for the govt to do…. ???

    and if the govt does this role – requires the
    testing of those contaminates – is it not an
    unfunded mandate?

    so.. yes.. I’m challenging on the role of
    government in testing water…

    did the US Congress – pass a law – that
    REQUIRED this testing and if they did – ( in 1974
    with later year amendment additions) … is this a
    case of the Govt poking it’s nose in the local
    affairs of counties like Spotsylvania and private
    fee-for-service water systems?

    Bonus Question: If the Govt did not REQUIRE this
    testing – would you actually know if Spotsy water –
    WAS SAFE?

    how would you know?

    yes .. I’m CHALLENGING you on the legitimate (or
    not) role of government…. I confess…

    I’m asking if this IS a LEGITIMATE role of
    government?

  • gramps

    At EWG, our team of scientists, engineers, policy experts, lawyers and computer programmers pores over government data, legal documents, scientific studies and our own laboratory tests to expose threats to your health and the environment, and to find solutions. Our research brings to light unsettling facts that you have a right to know.

    The above Paragraph was COPIED directly from the EWG web site. Please note the words carefully.

    EWG gathered existing data from the gov and other info, AND performed their own laboratory tests to expose these “unsettling(?)” facts. IF they tested water samples, they must have gotten them from the utilities OR they used something else…I do not know…!!!

    What I do know is that this gov entity known as the EPA is the current “authority” to which our water treatment uilities must respond, through the state/commonwealth health dept. to determine if they meet lawful standards for our drinking water.

    In addition, I know that the EWG lobby disagrees with the EPA about certain so-called polutants they believe is in the water and further believe are a serious threat to our health. NO where do they specify the deleterious health effects.

    The EWG wants new standards and that is what this is all about.

    It is NOT about more or less gov control over our lives OR about the running debate we have been having concerning the issue of big central gov or smaller central gov.

    THAT is my story and I am sticking to it.
    ;>)

  • lgross

    The EPA REQUIRES the states to test for these
    contaminates and requires them to keep records
    of the tests and requires them to report issues to
    the EPA and to correct them.

    But it does not require the states to post the info
    and the EPA itself does not maintain a repository
    of the state data.

    you can find this out at the EWG link:

    http://www.ewg.org/tap-water/methodology

    you might note that ….” Alabama requested a
    payment of $13,350.60 for its drinking water
    quality data, while West Virginia set its “data
    processing” fee at $15,000.”

    but …. MY POINT…. was that this is BIG
    GOVERNMENT (the FED EPA) that is putting
    UNFUNDED MANDATES on local governments and
    private water system operators…..

    and .. it’s been this way since 1974 – when the
    Safe Drinking Water Act was first passed during
    the Nixon/Ford Presidencies.

    My point here is that for 35 years we have had
    the Fed Government – CONTROLLING our health &
    welfare in a number of very intrusive ways
    including the water that many in Spotsylvania
    drink.

    This is the same big, inefficient, corrupt,
    incompetent “government” that is referred to in
    the current debate about whether or not the Gov
    ought to be “controlling” our health.

    Now, the EWG does want to the govt to do
    MORE… yes…

    they are making the case that there are some
    significant loopholes in the reporting thresholds
    for the contaminates that the EPA ALREADY
    regulates but does so at a level that is, in the
    opinion of the EWG, inconsistent with other health
    organizations threshold levels for these
    chemicals.

    It’s an advocacy group. It’s not that different
    from the groups back in 1974 that advocated for
    the initial Safe Water Drinking Act that
    “controlled” dozens of contaminates found in
    public and private water supply systems across
    the country.

    http://www.epa.gov/OGWDW/sdwa/

    All I’m trying to do here is to demonstrate that
    the Fed Gov has for a long time been involved in
    a wide variety of issues – like drinking water – and
    has done a good job of it.. in general.. and
    really.. IS THE REASON WHY – you are able to
    look at this data compiled by the EWG.

    There would be NO DATA …WITHOUT the Feds
    requirement that such data be collected.

    Can we AGREE that the Safe Drinking Water Act is
    a Federal Law that gives the EPA the power to
    regulate the drinking water that both Spotsylvania
    and private entities in Spotsy produce?

    My ONLY POINT is that there are many things
    that the gov does and has been doing for a while
    - than many folks are just unaware of even when
    they are spouting off about the govt wanting to
    “control” us….

    My apologies if I have ruffled feathers…

  • gramps

    ruffled feathers here. The subject has been exhausted IMHO.

  • MAVRICKinc

    Now that you have ground drinking water and health care controls into the same excuses we’ve been making for years to do nothing about our failing water systems.

    The Chespeake Bay may be just another watering hole to you, Spotsy’s drinking water may be as safe as you think it is, and the Commonwealth of Virginia may be ranked the second worst state out of 50 in waterway and system pollution, but lets stop where Bill left off; “The subject has been exhausted IMHO.”

    Let’s all wait and see, for another 30 years, and see what comes up from the bottom of the ocean or your nearest and most favorite river bed. The race hasn’t even started yet and here we are complaining about who’s in charge of our health and not having a clue about how we got HERE in the first place. I’ll stick with my bottled watered unless someone else can SHOW ME the difference between legal limits and water health guidelines.

  • lgross

    What I saw in this issue – was the classic argument about what the role of govt
    should be (or not) – and the fact that the govt has been performing this drinking
    water regulatory role for a long time – 30+ years and until now … I have not seen
    too many folks complaining about the big, bad, incompetent, unfunded-mandate
    issuing …. govt.

    Yes.. the govt is making us – at the local level – PAY for testing our drinking water.

    do you want to pay? should the govt be “forcing” you to pay for this?

    Do you think the govt should be telling localities like Spotsylvania and the pvt
    water systems also what level of contaminates they can or cannot have in their
    water?

    This is a classic govt role question in my view.

    And few, if any, I suspect would most folks would say HECK NO.. I don’t think the
    govt should be involved in our lives this way (I could be wrong for sure here).

    and yet.. that is the argument de jure right now on many current issues being
    debated –

    people are arguing about what the proper role of govt should be (or not) and I just
    felt that it should be pointed out that there are a number of areas where the govt
    has been involved for quite a while and that some of us MAY be taking it for
    granted – not having realized that we have quite a few protections that we enjoy
    BECAUSE the govt IS INVOLVED.

    Your seat belt in your car is .. an “unfunded mandate” – no?

  • MAVRICKinc

    Not hardly. Not sure what government you’re talking about; local, State ore Federal, but Health and Safety are funded and mandated.

    On a national scale it’s all about the accountability of a Nation and State to maintain the health and welfare of all its citizens, for want of some ONE or some Group not doing, or coming up short on the health of its citizens in City, County, State and Federal jurisdictions.

    You want to debate politics, not the health care and welfare of its citizens.

    Check it out. Where has politics,political leverage and persuasion gotten us since 1974, when we drafted the WORDS on protecting our water resources over the past 30 years? So, who pays in the end? You, me, or just about about anyone taking their next sip of water in Spotsy?

    How do you think Virginia got to be the 2nd worst water pollution rating out of 50 states. The rating is still an “F” and making its way down the alphabet.

    If you’re looking for someone to pay the freight,it’s US, not some bureaucrat holding down a desk and a monthly paycheck.

    My seatbelt works fine. Everyday of every year I contribute to reducing casualty claim insurance premiums and keep the automotive industry on its toes for want of fewer deaths on Virginia highways and less severe injuries to those who really get injured on our national highways and byways.

    Unfunded mandate? How much is the life of a single motorist worth, who strapped in, instead of
    tempting fate and engaging the likelyhood of being involved in yet another fender-bender, just moments away, without much more of an injury than a soft tissue sprain or strain to their neck: aka-Whiplash?

    So, which is it? Unfunded mandates or the quality of our drinking water, which deteriorates daily because no one governent entity wants to take responsibility for doing NOTHING for the past 50 years, except to hand in another annual budget for the cost of sitting around and debating why the Chespeake Bay and Virginia waterways are still dying and not doing anything about it.

    Larry: the debate is really over and has been for for more years than I care to recall. WE’RE in deep trouble and all you want to debate is who has the money.

    BOTTOM LINE: WE ALL DO. That’s the level of responsibility we all have, in keeping one of our most important single ingredients to life; water, and all life forms that embrace it’s power, without debate or the pollution we bring over it.

    Strap in Larry. We have a long way to go and not much time left to correct it, unless of course you have a one way ticket to Mars or the moon.

  • gramps

    in his first paragraph. WHAT gov are they talking about? Many adore more gov at ALL levels. I guess they feel that gov should provide everything.

  • lgross

    but we, as a society, especially in the last year or
    so have developed a highly schizoid attitude
    about government, tax, and it’s role in our lives –
    and whether we REALLY understand the things
    that it currently already does that many of us
    (without realizing what it already does) are, in
    effect, arguing against it.

    No law and no implementation by a govt is going
    to be nirvana – agreed.

    what do you have without the govt?

    would you have water testing? Would they be
    testing for the dozens of contaminates that are
    now tested? Would you KNOW if they did or did
    not or kept records or were held accountable if
    the water did have unhealthy levels of
    contaminates.

    Marty thinks the insurance company mandated
    seat belts. Nope. They COULD have but they did
    not because if they had the car companies would
    have ignored them and/or made seat belts a
    $200 option or whatever.

    It took the government to mandate it.

    is it perfect? is the water quality perfect? Are the
    waters of Virginia perfect?

    NO!

    so what?

    what would be YOUR solution to that – MORE
    Govt?

    We already know what LESS Govt does to the
    pollution in the rivers – right?

    so where do you stand?

    do you want tougher govt regulation or not?

    Do you want the stricter regulations that are
    being proposed by the EPA for the Chesapeake
    Bay watershed – or not?

    I’ve notice that more than a few of us tend to
    play both sides of the govt fence at times and
    my motivation in pursuing this issue is – to point
    that out.

    In my mind, it’s not so simple that govt or
    “more” govt is inherently evil, corrupt and
    incompetent – at all.

    No.. I’m not a lover of more govt but I also
    recognize – and others should also that when that
    traffic signal in front of you turns green and you
    believe that the opposing traffic signal is red –
    that you are indeed depending on a COMPETENT
    government.

    When we get 15 inches of snow – we don’t run to
    the phone to beg a pvt snow plow to plow our
    subdivisions for a bunch of money – No – We ..
    EXPECT the govt to do it.

    When you use faucet water for bathing or
    cooking, you EXPECT it NOT to cause you harm.

    We take that for granted. In many countries, the
    water has deadly chemicals in it, unfit for human
    consumption on any level.

    The private sector will not bring civilization “clean”
    water.

    We know this.

    If you want clean (and cleaner) water, you will
    need to rely on the govt – the same big, bad,
    incompetent govt that we now days are saying is
    unable to perform acceptably.

    Govt does perform guys.

    It’s a mess.

    We have problems.

    There are failures.

    yes. yes. yes.

    give me a reasonable alternative.

    Does the county need to do a better job with info
    and FOIA?

    Yes.

    Would it be better if the State and Spotsylvania
    did provide better transparency and accountability
    with transportation funding?

    sure.

    Do these shortfalls mean that govt has failed in
    Spotsy?

    I’ll let ya’ll answer that one.

  • gramps

    of being accused of being anti-gov here and elsewhere.

    What I am against is REDUNDANT gov bureaucracy and the associated exorbitant costs; we have it everywhere you look. Additionally, I am dead set against those practices by our elected representatives that basically amount to robbing Peter to pay Paul. Plain and simple.

    Homespun rationalizations that emphasize the everyday things that our govs provide and asking questions about whether or not we like or use these services is not really debate. It is “baiting” the obvious.

    I completely understand and respect the fact that at this point in time my political bent is not in the majority. I am a fiscal conservative. I am for a womans right to choose. I am for less, not more gov. I do not support the leanings and certain positions of the “social progressives.” I will, however, respect the results of a majority rule decision made after legitimate debate. I reserve the right to criticize elected officials at all levels that espouse beliefs that are counter to my own.

  • lgross

    not my intent. I only wanted to (thoroughly, I admit) point out that
    how much govt we have (or not) is driven in part by what the pvt sector
    will do well (or not).

    I’m a fiscal conservative ALSO and I also think that are plenty
    examples of bad govt and politicians ( AND pvt sector folks) who WILL
    rob Peter to pay Paul, HOWEVER – methinks we Sometimes Confuse
    these things with the purpose and need for govt.

    Unfortunately, when we decided a long time ago that we would NOT let
    people die on the sidewalk outside of ERs of old age or destitution –
    we cast our fates to some level of involvement by the rest of us – the
    “government”.

    I think we need to have our water tested and I think that the pvt
    sector will not do this so we have no choice but to have govt do it.
    Obviously, we want the govt to do it in a cost-efficient way and not
    cause increased costs that have no benefit…

    but leaving this up to the pvt sector does not work – we know this.

    and the same is true of many other issues that we are confronted by
    IMHO.

    but again.. sorry if you felt picked on… my apologies.

  • MAVRICKinc

    Who is this private sector and what accountability do they have to anyone but themselves. It’s disguised as free enterprise.

    Remember that movie a while back about the fictionalized life of Erin Brockavich and what hoops she went through, for a paycheck, to better understand why so many people in a community were coming down sick or dying because the “private sector” couldn’t bring themselves to be responsible for poisoning their drinking water and the water they were using to fill up their kid’s above ground swimming pool?

    I’ve got a copy if you ever want to take a second look and reflect on your questions of whether the government is perfect, whether the water quality of our drinking water is perfect or whether the “waters of Virginia” are perfect. Since you and I don’t have a clue what “perfection” is, is not, or ever will be. the easy answer is alway NO, because we don’t know.

    If that were the case we would’nt be CAUSED to ask the question in the first place. The answer would already be standing directly in front of us, and supplied by the best of intentions of the “private sector” and any other level or levels of government.

    Did less government allow the fiduciary powers of the global Wall Streets, that were too big to fail, to fall to their knees and bring us down with them?

    AFTER that METRO train collision that killed and injured so many people, what did the National Transpotation Board come back with? They told Metro, YEARS BEFORE, their rail system had serious problems and for YEARS Metro ignored these very serious warnings because they could. So much for perfection and the private sector.

    Who do you trust in the private sector, with your health, welfare and quality of life, without perfection but reasonable accountability.

    The only reason we need tougher regulations, is because the people and governments we have come to trust with our well being have been lying to us for 30 years. Hell, even Greenspan admitted that with less regulations of the private and public sectors, he ASSUMED, they would do the right thing and would conduct business at the level of at least best business practices, without weighing in on this constant excuse for failure by using the PERFECT card.

    I want to drink clean, uncontaminated drinking water. If we have a problem delivering that to the public, and all those other critters who qualify as needing the same, before their extinction, we don’t need perfection or Utopias; just a clean glass of water, or maybe that’s asking too much. I’m still stuck on what anyone means when the water rates ABOVE health guidelines but under legal limits. After all, that is the we’re talking about.

    Whether you’re labeled a conservative, middle of the road, or liberal, doesn’t have a thing to do with “clean, uncontaminated drinking water.”
    No amount of words or wording in law is ever going to replace the need for good drinking water.

    Making excuses for government’s successes and failures will eventually be born on the backs of the governed. If you want mediocrity, that’s what you’ll get. If you are prepared to except less than perfection, you are at least in the ballpark and closer to where I live, and still a couple notches down from there.

    There’s CLEAN, CLEANER, AND CLEANEST. Take your pick. You will note that none of these come with disclaimers, modifers, or substitutes. It’s just plain old water. Mix in a couple more ingredients and I want to know about it.

    It’s sort of like the VRE Master Agreement, when the PROMISE is, they’ll do their best to keep down cost. What exactly do you think that means?

    Larry, we can invest a life time in these circles of yours.

    Spotsylvania County has failed us, and will continue to do so, no matter how many excuses you put on their plates.

    You’ve answered all my questions, except on the issue of clean water.

    Your wish list on what we and our governments should be doing, is just that and nothing more. Just asking for someone, anyone, to do something, anything, or not, takes a lot more more than lip-service and hollow promises.

    That’s all we’re getting back and disguised in your very own words; “Now, the EWG does WANT the GOVERNMENT TO DO MORE.” Like what? I thought the EPA and EWG were coming out of the closet they’ve been in for more than two decades. Where’s the CLEAN WATER in all that, or better still, drinking water that is “within” health guidlines, not ABOVE or just shy of a legal limit, but squarely, somewhere within the term “clean” without contaminates serving as a prefix or suffix to what “water” is, in the view of those who measure it everyday, on and off the the private sector’s and government’s lands.

    Larry, you really are part of the answer, but spend entirely too much time on one side of fence, or in the middle, on its top rail.

    Thanks for the shout out. Please have a very, Merry Christmas and keep it safe for next year.

  • MAVRICKinc

    No Larry, I didn’t say nor has the insurance industry claimed they mandated “seat belts.”

    The Casualty Claims Insurance Industry was the “underwriter” of the legislation that put seat belts into every car because the automotive industry was not listening.

    If you were familiar with much of the pre-seat belt litigation going on and the huge awards being granted to those who were injured in auto accidents, to a greater level of severity, you could better appreciate the insurance industries imperitive to make cars safer; seat belts. To stop the litigation blood letting in loss payments they were being caused to make, they went to their own engineers and found that seat belts might mitigate the severity of injuries found in most accidents; not eliminating accidents from happening. You don’t have a seat belt on, when you go to or through the wind shield, some extent of your serious injuries can be considered “your fault” in a world of no fault.

    The Automotive Industry finally wised up after having to negotiate their insurance premiums for doing business without a seat belt.

    Now, we even get our cars rated good, better, best or not so good and find out whichis which at the news stand or delivered monthly under consumer protection.

    Now we have airbags. I’ll let you decide what they’re good for. Happy trails.

  • gramps

    An apology was unnecessary and was not sought.

    I will admit to being a bit “touchy” because of what I have been witnessing in the national HC fiasco in the U.S. Senate. The downright open soliciting for and getting “bribes” to vote for this thing has simply left my nerve endings raw.

    I realize that this behavior goes on all the time up there; except it is usualy done in a more subtle fashion. This was old fashioned “in your face” bribery.

  • gramps

    The open affrontery, displayed this week in the United States Senate, towards the citizens of this country went beyond the pale of anything I have ever witnessed before. The absolute arrogance of this national legislative body is incredulous.

  • lgross

    and Merry Christmas to you too!

  • gramps

    And to you and yours. A truly Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I hope everyone out there is enjoying the holiday season with family and friends.

    My first post today was rhetorical. The actions of the senate were their Christmas greeting to America. By actions, I mean not the passage of the HC bill per se; but the procedural techniques used to get there.

  • lgross

    well..it was only a couple years ago when I remember
    similar shenanigans in Congress on the opposite side of
    the aisle on things that did not do us particularly proud
    either – like tossing Paygo and then legislating Medicare
    Part D without insuring that it was subjected to Paygo.

    Ultimately Medicare Part D ended up being a giveaway to
    the drug companies. This is why ever day on TV you see
    dozens of commercials for prescription drugs.

    and I think it’s a bit ironic with the current legislation.

    We, as a society, say that every child is entitled to a
    “free” education regardless of their personal or economic
    circumstances – the rest of us “will provide” that “subsidy”
    to make sure every kid has “coverage”.

    But up until two days ago, that same society was
    apparently willing to let a child die and/or his parents go
    bankrupt trying to keep him alive if he had a “pre-
    existing” condition and he could not obtain health
    insurance.

    And our friends on the right side of the aisle had 8 years
    to do something about it – in their own fashion that if they
    had done that – might well had made it much harder for
    the latest legislation to get enough support.

    The way the legislation was passed certainly did not do
    anyone proud – but like I said, when it comes to Congress
    and legislation, it’s not like we have not ever seen the
    use of “earmarks” in the previous 8 years – either.

    For me it comes down to proportionality. If we say that
    public education is so important that every child must be
    “covered”, how can we use a different standard when it
    comes to their health?

    We have a brand new New Year ahead of us. I’ve got a
    feeling that we’re going to see even more “effrontery” but
    then again, in my view, we had 8 previous years of the
    same so we can suck it up and move on.

    If enough people believe that Congress is on a wrong
    path, the same thing will happen to the Dems – as
    happened the year before to the Republicans.

    And then the Republicans, I can well assure, will perform
    in much the same way as the Dems.. and as the
    Republicans did before the Dems took over.

    for better or worse – that’s the way our system “works”
    and as bad as some feel it is (and I would not disagree
    at times), it’s way the heck better than some of the more
    well-known alternatives we see around us in other
    countries.

    so…

    Happy New Year! (a week early).

  • gramps

    Yes Larry, the Bush crowd and the GOP congress did not do anything and we should never forget that. What we have here is the classical “chicken and egg” conundrum. the GOP did or did not do this….the dems did or did not do that. And so on and so forth to infinitum. If you or anyone else likes the current Harry Reid shenanigans, that is your right; please do me the favor of giving me my right NOT to like those tactics.

    What any of these people do or do not do does not mean I am going to sit back and shut my mouth and not speak out. So far, this is a free country and I intend to speak my mind whether you or anyone else likes it or not.

    I have written and said on any number of occasions my “beef” with Washington politics applies equally to all sides of the political aisle; unlike a lot of others that hang around these blogs. I sometimes get the impression that others fail to read before they post their critiques.

    Had we had a truly bipartisan approach up there on Capitol Hill, I suspect the HC issue and a lot of other issues could and would have been handled long ago to everyones satisfaction.

    The current economic situation in this country remains a critical concern to me and there is plenty of evidence that a lot of pretty smart people share that concern. There will come a day when the dems will have to stop blaming GWB et al and step up to the plate and answer for the actions they are taking.

  • lgross

    I don’t think the Dems every made any bones
    about their support over the years.

    They were the ones, after all, that supported
    Social Security and Medicare while the
    Republicans opposed these things.

    My main problem with the Republicans is that
    there is a reason why they and Bush did not do
    anything and that is they were and remain
    fundamentally opposed even as they outright lie
    that they support Medicare instead of admitting
    the truth.

    Medicare is govt healthcare and anyone with basic
    principles against the govt doing health care
    would honestly admit that all forms of it are
    wrong.

    So the Dems have stuck to their principles and
    the Republicans theirs – when is not being honest
    about their principles when the light shines on
    them.

    And they do that because they know if the
    country as a whole knew how they really felt that
    we’d not have the FDIC, or nutrition labels on
    food, or seat belts in cars or water testing –
    because they are fundamentally opposed to what
    they call the “nanny state” or “socialism”.

    I don’t have a problem with people who hold such
    principles. I don’t agree but I respect their
    values.

    but I don’t have respect for folks who say one
    thing about principles an then do something else.

    If you don’t like govt healthcare then you should
    hate Medicare especially after telling everyone
    how bad it is and how it is going to go broke.

    Why not stand up and clearly say that govt
    healthcare is wrong and that when you get back
    into power, you’re going to do away with Medicare
    for the same reasons you’re opposed to govt
    healthcare as a whole?

    It’s hypocritical to say one thing and do another.

    Give the Dems credit on this. They say they
    support govt health care and they do.

    The Republicans don’t.

  • gramps

    baloney!

  • MAVRICKinc

    Just packing my things up when I noticed a map from the George Washington Regional Commission providing for the POLLUTED WATERS in the City of Fredericksburg. The surrounding Counties were not included in this map of polluted waters, but I have every reason to believe FAMPO/GWRC has this additional information that can necessarily be found on their web site and links.

    You also may want to take a look at the Star Exponent’s 12/28/2009 coverage of “The Contaminant levels in Louisa water SPARK changes.”

    SEE: “A spokesman for the Virginia Department of Health has said haloacetic acids won’t harm residents in the SHORT TERM, although it can increase a person’s risk of cancer over many years.”

    So, as Larry and Bill have concluded, we have nothing to be concerned about when it comes to the drinking water supplied by Spotsylvania County, and ALL those private interest who manage our water resources.

    Not only that, should anything go wrong with the quality of our drinking water in Spotsylvania County, we get to blame quite a few levels of governments (city, local, state and federal) for falling asleep at the wheel, but only IF the quality of our drinking water exceeds the “legal limit.” It’s only then we can claim foul.

    Too little or too late? Not knowing, one way or the other, only allows us to enjoy the fiction a little while longer, and there is always, for want of a little reality, the SURPRISE we get to shout out, for not knowing, but wished we had.

    Anyone out there know about the consequences of plausible denyability? It’s one of those cards we play every day to avoid blame, accountability, and responsibility for doing NOTHING, until it ALL goes wrong and we don’t have a leg to stand on.

    Waiting and wishing is just another part of walking around with blinders on. Just think how many stories we could tell or have been told over the years, while playing a single card, in a game of stud poker.

  • lgross

    it still boils down to what you think the role of govt should be (or not) in
    my mind.

    we can argue (and do) about how capable the govt is in carrying out
    these roles but it’s not like we have a choice between the govt doing this
    role and pvt industry doing this role.

    So.. we have folks who are staunchly opposed to the govt getting into
    what is best characterized as a “nanny state” or HORRORS ..”socialism”.

    So I still ask the question. Should the govt be deciding what is allowed to
    be in the water you drink or not?

    simple question.

    let’s cut to the chase here.

    we know the govt is big, incompetent, corrupt and clearly bureaucratic – all
    true – but we also know the pvt sector is worse – right?

    so let’s stop yammering about how bad the govt is – for a moment – and
    make that choice… then we can argue…

    I vote for the govt to set and enforce water standards.

    next person – batter up.

  • MAVRICKinc

    Larry: neither one of us could or would vote any differently, EXCEPT I have one caveat attached to my blog vote.

    When the term “Government” is used to define “the enforcement of water standards, let’s not leave any one government out of the equation. Government will necessarily include Federal,State, local, County, and City.

    If you haven’t had a chance to pull up Star-Exponent’s AP coverage for 12/30/2009, under title of “EPA to states in region: Clean up the bay, or else” you might want to take a look-see. Speaks volumes on the changes that will come to protect our drinking water.

    When I vote YES, it includes any, all, and every level of government that claims to have a hand in, accountability for, and responsibility of keeping our drinking water and water resources clean.

    You wanted it simple, and this is what I bring to the table; YES.

    As I’ve said before, we don’t need to argue, debate, make more excuses or conjure up ways to delay in setting and enforcing what’s been on the books for more than 30 years.

    Whether governments are big, bad, bureaucratic, incompetent, or corrupt is really NOT the issue. I, for one, could care less what disguise governments wear, at any given moment, while they wait, only to be found out, sooner or later.

    When it comes to clean drinking water, there is no debate. It is or it isn’t and all the mud, chemicals and contaminents we throw into the mix, that become the ingredients of unsafe drinking water, will be on all of our heads, not just those who play with our lives, and the life of this planet in order to be voted back into defining what clean drinking water is, or is not, on any given day.

    Water is not political fodder. It’s the foundation of our continued existence, unless of course you have already booked passage to the moon, Mars or the next universe, and yes, there are those who are already making plans for lift-off from this planet, if only to pollute another.

    Last time I was at bat, I hit IT out of the park. Now all I have to do is round the bases to HOME, if only for just a few minutes more.

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