Both incumbents cancel attendance at bloggers’ forum

if the audience attendance last night is the bigger story rather than the fact that Pitts and Skinner were no shows?

Undoubtedly, the fact that this election covers only two districts is one factor in the poor crowd turn-out. Could it also mean that the “challengers” are in for an unpleasant surprise on election day?

I think the bloggers have a good basic concept
that could prove to be one of the more popular
debate forums – but I think they need to tend to
a few things and these are constructive criticisms
so don’t get riled up folks.

I think your panel needs to be balanced. You
might consider someone from FRED2TRUE or
similar to balance it out.

you need to pick your site in advance knowing
that you will, in fact, be able to live blog the
event.

I think the cards are a bit gimmicky but perhaps
I’m an old fogie .. I think the cards throw another
level of uncertainty into the format which can be a
turn-off for a candidate that DOES want to answer
the question and DOES want his opponent to
answer also and the concept of “hyperlinking”..I
dunno guys.. that’s sounds a bit off the wall to
me.

I’d not let ANY panel member to be an active
supporter of any of the candidates involved in the
debate.

When you click on the websites of some of the
panelists – it takes you directly to a very partisan
website supporting one of the candidates.

that’s not good IMHO.

the double random idea is a good attempt to
negate the potential of influence but I don’t think
it succeeds in completely achieving it;

that’s my two cents – and I’ve tried to put it in the
form of how to make the forum better so that it
becomes the success that I think it could
become.

Your thoughts are well intentioned and lucid, thanks.

We did pre-survey the candidates who would speak about it and honed the formula accordingly the best we could. The card were actually in response to the concerns, not a cause for them. They asked things like, “well what if I’m uncomfortable with the question? What if it’s a better thing for my opponent to answer for but I get asked it. What if I just want to not answer that? What if my opponent or someone else is really railing on my for 2 minutes, will you shut him up?’

Now, me being the way I am, I would tend to rip into them for being weak and spineless as most of these concerns are a daily fact of being on an elected board, and if they can’t handle it from us bloggers in the public, they sure can’t handle it from a super-active, old, angry retiree who attends every meeting and worksession instead of watching Oprah. But we compromised and gave everyone the “out” they might need, but only ONE of each. And if we reaaaally wanted to press, we have the limited follow-up chips to cash in and keep them on the hot seat a little longer.

Affiliations in campaigns are impossible to eliminate in our area since the pool for political activists is, well– either being a candidate or a blogger. There aren’t many ACTIVE people in local politics who also blog to choose from.

The Fred2Liberals guys WERE invited and declined. They were first on my list to sit on the left side of the table. Apparently being a liberal and working to advance your agenda was too much to consider, hence the Spotsy Democrats web site. hehe

If you don’t have one Larry, start a blog yourself- heck, you’re on here often enough to just cut & paste! And join us on the panel next time!

Yeah- venues are always a problem getting it “just right”. When you ask non-technical people about what they have, and they see computers and wires nearby, they say “yeah we have Internet there, no problem. Lesson Learned though…

HAHA- Larry you impress me! I had no idea you were a Republican!

PS- I think I can answer all those questions to a pretty good level of detail, and I know Yakabouski and McGuire can as well.

For instance, we know that there will be no more
money coming from VDOT – in essence because
we neglected to index the gas tax unlike other
states – and VRE.

So now, we have a big decision about what to do
about local and regional transportation.

How will Spotsylvania deal with needed new roads
in the future without raising taxes?

Bragg Road will cost about 6 million dollars.
Stafford found out earlier this week than the total
amount they will receive next year is about 2
million dollars.

Spotsy won’t do much better.

so.. how will we maintain, expand, improve our
regional transportation network?

these are the types of questions that I think our
local candidates should answer – with clarity.

to answer some of the questions. I am no longer
a member of any organization other than the
FAMPO TAG – and that will be at their discretion
which they have the power to change membership
at any time they wish.

My standards for being part of NGOs now days is
that they have to be serious about accomplishing
their mission and they must be forthright about
the issues – to show the pros/cons for each issue
they take a stand on – and to fully explain why
they take their positions and that means they
need to know the data.

And like I was asking Eric – who in this area
knows the dollar specifics of transportation?

Because if you don’t know this – then how could
you take a position?

I’m not as good as doing homework as you are
Marty – but I am more than open to being shown
relevant info.. but I need to know exactly what
your points are and I’m not patient with vague
innuendo ESPECIALLY when dealing in
personalities.

stick to the issues – to the data – to the facts –
make your points – and back them up without
once mentioning personalities and I’m happiest.

Now what you missed Marty – didn’t do that
homework was my involvement in the opposition
to the Salem Church Dam and the Outer
Connector.

tsk tsk.. I thought you were pretty good at that.

gotta do better… tsk tsk

but you need to give C500 credit for their
candidate questions – they are good questions.

I did not care for their nebulous way of
supporting their candidates (nor VRE) but they
did a decent job on those questions for the most
part.

The Smart Growth question was an enormous
softball.. any fool could have given them the
answer they were desperately seeking…

Anyhow Marty – do you have any idea how much
money the FAMPO area generates in gasoline
taxes?

how about that being your next homework
assignment?

do you have an answer? I have examined the revenue side of the county budget and unless it is lumped in with other state sales tax figures it is not there. I have also looked at the DMV numbers and have found the state aggregate figures for motor fuel tax revenue, but no county breakdowns. Is this something that one has to belong to the “in group” to know the answers?

but I ask the question – if you don’t know for
your own county what the facts are – how can you
advocate for something as a fix?

Like you – I have yet to see actual data but I can
show you a VDOT operations budget for the
Fredericksburg Area and it totals about 160
million dollars if I remember correctly:

here:
http://virginiadot.org/business/resources/fy-08-
supplement-final.pdf page 7

this is a large PDF so be patient…

so we know that we get a pile of money back for
operations – while most folks blithely think that
“roads are free” after they are built.

so how much money do we actually generate in
gas tax?

isn’t that an important number for any citizen and
any politician running for office professing to do
“something” about it?

When a politician is saying that it is a “state
responsibility” – and the State money is already
completely dedicated to maintenance and
operations – 160 million worth in the Fburg Area –
what exactly is that politician advocating that the
state do about it?

Are they not saying that it’s up to the state to
raise taxes on Spotsy citizens to pay for “more”?

why would we want to pay the state more taxes
rather than paying those taxes locally for our
transportation needs – if either of the two
directions results in a tax increase to start with?

Wouldn’t it be BETTER to get ALL of our tax
money back locally – from the get go rather than
sending it to Richmond and not getting all of it
back?

but then… since we don’t know how much we
actually generate verses how much we actually
get back – how could any citizen or any politician
really know what the heck they are talking about
in the first place?

and that’s my point… if you are a politician
running for office – you should know these facts
and you should cite them to the folks you want to
elect you – that you know what the heck you are
talking about and citizens also know what the real
situation is and have to decide what they want to
do about it – or not

so that’s the first question I would ask a local
candidate – whether I was C500 or the Bloggers
or anyone for that matter that really wants to
know what that fellow (or gal) would do about
transportation.

and in my mind – that’s the potential value of a
citizens group in the first place – a valid reason
for them to exist.

You are cmpletely correct about the candidates, but if the ‘data’ is not available where we can find it how can we expect them to find it?

If my theory, stated earlier, is correct; there is probably some “clerk” in Richmond that may be able to total all the motor fuel taxes paid by retailers and/or wholesalers in Spotsy and provide the answer. It may be as simple as hitting a button on a computer somewhere. However, if the state accounting system does not use that knid of input it may never see the light of day.

Now, it would seem to me that it would behoove each and every BOS member, in their argument pro or con on VRE, to officially request this information and use it in their positions. That’s sort of what “pols” do, isn’t it?

In fact, would not the PRTC and VRE boards need that kind of info when they meet to decide the individual members share of the “excess” revenues at year end? If so, why would that info not be publicly available? Are we not pretty sure these folks lurk hereabouts? Some of them even post here at times.

I agree. So, this is how I do it. Our Commissioner of
Revenue receives total gallons sold info as required by filing
of the BPOL Tax each year. The total for ’08 was 93,130,635
gallons of gas/diesel fuel sold. If you do the math, that
equals roughly to $16.3M for the state.
If we were doing VRE and the average price of gas was
$2.50/gal, that would generate (gal x $2.50 x 2%) $4.7M.
Then, if you deduct the VRE projected subsidy of $1.4M, you
end up with $3.3M net for the county, assuming my math is
correct.
I will be getting the ’09 BPOL data update soon.

yes – thanks. That’s what I got – but it’s not the
whole story as the Va gas tax provides only 25%
of the VDOT budget.

Remember – VDOT also gets Virginia’s share of
the 18 cent Fed Tax also.

VDOT also receives 1/2% of the sales tax

check out the DMV statewide monthly data here
for all of the sources:

http://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/pdf/tracking_
aug09.pdf

Once you start taking into account all the other
sources and total them up – you start to better
understand where the 160 million for VDOT
Fredericksburg come from.

here:
http://virginiadot.org/business/resources/fy-08-
supplement-final.pdf

note that it includes the construction also – I
erred before in saying it was only operations and
maintenance.

So the Fredericksburg District has 14 counties in it
- I’m not sure the total population but I’d hazard
perhaps 500K or so… the data is there.. just
needs to be crunched.
but let’s compute allocation on a population basis

160,000,000/500,000 = about 300 bucks per
capita – which multiplied times 120K …. about 40
million …

and out of that.. we get less than 6 million for
construction – is that right?

okay.. so you want to address this issue – what’s
the best way?

raise the statewide gas tax? a nickel (which will
probably never happen) will bring in an additional
2.5 million total .. not sure how much of that
Spotsy would net for improvements.
( a penny statewide brings in about 50 million).

but a savy Spotsy BOS might do copy this NoVa
template:

” What Different Funding Options Generate for
NoVa – local and state gas and sales taxes

http://www.nvta.org/content.asp?contentid=1188

okay ..so I’m going through the numbers and
though I have some of the data, I clearly don’t
have all of it.

but I would like to see a candidate or a BOS
incumbent or a citizens group with something on
the ball – do this – so that more folks in
Spotsylvania will better understand what our
current status is – and what directions we might
want to think about for the future…

…. instead of the every popular but totally no-
response ” it’s a state responsibility”.

by the way.. I have not touched on the potential
use of Transportation Districts to play a role and
the current BOS know far, far more about this
than most folks including me.

Finally – a provocative question:

What IF… it were possible to have the GA allow
the PRTC to boost the current 2% to 5% and the
entire additional 3% would go to the county for
road improvements?

would that be something for Spotsylvania to put
on their legislative priority list?

in the Master Agreement! The public hasn’t read it, the FLS refuses to critically analze it and the PRTC hides it from the Taxpayers of the County. Spotsy is just the next “public entity” being duped into bailing out a bad government program.

I’ll agree that the VRE agreement – and for that
matter the legal and policy aspects of VRE are
murky – just as the money for VDOT funding is
also.

and I’ll further agree that in terms of
transparency and accountability – that virtually
none of the players, VRE, Spotsylvania, FAMPO,
VDOT – seem to understand the importance of
making this information available to the public.

It’s a legitimate issue for citizens to demand
better government from the entities that use
public funds to carry out their missions – ostensibly to serve the public.

Our area is not unique in this regard.

Go to the Virginia Coalition for Open Govt –
http://www.opengovva.org/ and you can read a
litany of similar less-than-accountable actions by
all levels of government across va to restrict
information that should be public.

I once saw a local citizens group charged several
hundred dollars from VDOT in their attempts to
obtain information that should have been public.

but I’d disagree with those that say it’s
someone’s fault .. which it is .. but in the end – if
citizens do not assert themselves on these kinds
of issues then they won’t get results.

There are legislators who are very supportive of
open government and they will listen and even
sponsor legislation if requested.

Senator Houck is actually has been an officer and
is a current member on the Va Coalition of Open
Govt.

The truth is – as VCOG and Sen Houck will tell you
that the law is one thing – and enforcing it on a
practical basis is quite another.

the long and short of it is – that if we (citizens)
want more information – that we have to earn it.

we have to push, persuade, and finally fight for it
because even though it’s wrong for govt to hide
info, it’s just what they often do..

and there are many success stories – the top guy
and some of his top aides at the Va Fish and
Game got fired because of the persistence of a
citizen – using the FOIA law.

so I’ll share the frustration about the VRE Master
Agreement – and other info about VRE – as well
as info about other transportation
“arrangements” in our Area but as I pointed out –
this is not a unique problem to Spotsy.

We can continue to complain about it – or we can
do more about it than collectively wring our
hands.

it can be much more effective if several citizens
are willing to work together to accomplish more
than they could as individuals but both paths do
work.

this is actually one of my biggest
disappointments with C500. I originally
envisioned it as an effective organization
dedicated to dealing substantively with the issues
by getting the facts – and holding county govt
more accountable and insisting that public
information be made available without a knock-
down-drag-out.

now… some who frequent here – have nothing
but complaints – about everyone and everything
they say or do – as opposed to shutting the heck
up and putting their money where their mouth is
and actually work to accomplish change.

in my view – this is a cowardly behavior to
essentially say that everyone else is responsible
for the problems and then listing the people and
organizations …

what does this accomplish?

nothing?

whiners be gone.

if you want a more open, more accountable
government – you’re not going to get it by
yammering on and on about what others are not
doing.

we basically get the govt that we deserve folks.

although it’s not right – go read all the ways that
govt evades their duty at the VCOG site – the
bottom line is that citizens have to assert
themselves if they want more transparency and
accountability in local govt.

Larry, we have just posted all the VRE docs adopted by
the Spotsy BOS on 8-18-09. You can find them at :
https://www.spotsylvania.va.us/departments/bos/index.c
fm#BOS_VRE_Documents

That is only one of them. There are four in all. Try this
link :http://www.spotsylvania.va.us/
They are listed under FYI – “VRE Documents as Adopted
By the Board 8-18-09″
Hope this helps.

Larry, your October 8, 2009 7:47 PM response to my “Bloggers Lament” starts out by saying you are only going “to answer SOME of my questions.”

That’s sort of like saying you have a ‘get out of jail” card”, much like the Bloggers Forum had available for candidates who showed, and the silence generated by encumbants Skinner and Pitts’… hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil and no show strategy.

Even the C500, at their candidate forum, recorded NOTHING, took no pictures, or provided anything for public consumption. Simply said, this C500 forum never took place, and the only thing the C500 had to offer were candidates and encumbants answers to a scripted questionaire they’ve been using for years to see who comes closest to THEIR principles and a County Government that steers their boat, but not into uncharted waters (change).

Larry, the fact remains that you are no longer a member/Chairman of the C500, but every time you turn the corner you’re still carrying C500 baggage. The FLS has demonstrated to my satisfaction they are bound by the same baggage you carry around on your back. YOUR WORDS DON’T LEAVE MUCH ROOM FOR US TO QUESTION OR EVEN SPECULATE OTHERWISE.

If Eric has answers to “who in this area knows the dollar specifics of transportation”, what was his answer?

You want us to stick to ISSUES. TRANSPORTATION is an ISSUE. You can pull up the last 20 years on the issue of Transportation and see that it hasn’t made progress from day one to today’s date.

Now, WHO beyond political rhetoric, fuzzy feelings, more cliches than anyone could possibly imagine, my end question doesn’t get any better than, “where’s the money?”

If it were not for people, personalites, and politics we wouldn’t have issues. Your solution is to yell at the top of your lungs to “STOP IT.” and “Deal with the issues and let people out of it.”

Since WHEN have YOUR RULE of engagement become the only available means of finding the truth and confined soley to your version of reality?

Larry, if you want to use those big words, ie PEJORITIVE, you might consider providing our blog audience with definitions of what you’re saying: like “tending to disparage or belittle” OR ” “to make or become worse.”

I have enough problems making my way through one of Paul Akers’ editorial spread sheets and challenging prose.

You might want to consider looking in the mirror next time, before casting your aspersions. Apparently you’re the one with the thin skin, which I know better. Whether you “Deeply Resent” my input is something you and you alone will have to deal with.

We’ve covered this ground before, and your threat that “these are more than veiled personal attacks, and I (Larryg) don’t mind asking the FLS to make their own determination of them if you choose to continue in this way.”

Larry, the phone number you’re looking for is 540-374-5000. When the FLS picksup your call you might want to ask for Jim Toler, local news editor, or ring up Dan Telvock’s direct number, 540-374-5438. I’m confident they both have a current version of what free seech entails and I have already signed off on the terms a conditions of the FredTalk User Agreement.

If you want to dial up the Committee of 500, I’m certain you already have their number.

So, what part of my “Bloggers Lament” did you decide not to read or acknowledge? I gave you the additional titled VRE agreements Spotsylvania has posted on their website and will become part of the VRE Master Agreement, given the opportunity.

Your response to Supv. Logan’s description of what was “recently” posted was identified in my Bloggers Lament, with specificty. You claim to have gotten a 404 (what ever that is), but still asked Supv. Logan if thyis were the correct document.

Logan responded that your 404 link was only one of four document posted at the Spotsylvania County Web site. Your 404 document was a copy of the VRE Master Agreement dated 7-17-2009. If you need the the 8-12-2009 version, I suggest you call Supv Hap
Connors, to see if VRE can send a copy. After all, as Chairman of FAMPO and the George Washington Regional Commission, I’m confident he can arrange to have VRE send you a copy, just as Al Harf, PRTC Executive Director provided me this information.

Your response back to Supv. Logan was “YES…I seem to remember perusing these previously…more than once.” You then encapsulate your take on the VRE Master Agreement as a concept and wind up saying, “so I’m (Larryg) having trouble understanding whether or not it’s fixing the VRE contract or just saying no to the CONCEPT of commuter rail.

Your use of the terms “mixed feelings” and “murky” really doesn’t provide me with a confidence that your distractions serve any constructive purpose or profile in what’s really going on behind closed doors, other than to obfuscate what you consider is not relevant or germane to the issues and the people, politics and personalities that are joined at the hip.

Larry: the record will show I’ve been ignored for years by the very people you hold in the highest reguard. So far, THEY they have given given me no reason to applaud their arrogance or hiding behind their silence.

The NAACP is preparing for their coming out to celebrate their history and life long commitment to engage our enemies and bring us to this point in history. They are and will forever be the morter mix that holds this nation together.

One of its senior members was in attendance at the Riverbend BLOGGERS FORUM, in preparation for the NAACP gathering and celebration. He and a senior member of the C500 was in attendance. I don’t recall seeing you at this meeting.

SEA is the component part of the education system and agenda that seeks money and market share to raise levels of education to their highest levels, if that is at all possible. I thrive on learning. Have done so all my life.

The Republican Party, from where I’m sitting, is trying their best to put lots of people under a single banner and having them pay allegiance to principles and agendas that have not yet been decided on. Their principles and STANDARDS are not much different than the Democrats, Independents or Libertarians. It’s called “being first in line.”

You can talk rules, standards, principles all you want. My only interest is how people, politics and personalites make their way to center stage and whether their standards and principles make sense and whether they stand a chance of making it to the bottom line.

Larry, maybe you don’t get it. You can be all things to all people, parties, alliances, strategic oneness as you wish. I just keep waiting for someone to persuade me they are headed in the right direction and it serves in our best interest.

You don’t debate issues. You rejoice in making murky what should be common knowlege. You mistify issues like the VRE Master Agreement which you claim to have read, much the same way it did in 2007 and still come up with questions on how the contract could be so onerous.

We’ve addressed this issue, in much of its specifity over the past 6 months, and you still can’t account for the language, terms, conditions and constraints that serve only one purpose; cash flow into a transit and transportation agenda that steals from one mode of transportation to underwrite another.

Spotsylvania County has about $100 million left over from the 2005 Referendum ($144 million) and dedicated to the proposition that County roads and transportation needs would be taken care of. It’s 2009 going on 2010. You tell me how well our money has been spent or should we default to your citizen group for answers.

I didn’t eliminate 12 public oversite committees 2 years ago. The Spotsylvania Country’s BOS did and WE want them back, so we can play by our rules, principles and standards and work with our elected leaders if allowed to do so. When was the last time you knocked on a closed door and gained admission.
I’m still waiting for my ticket of admission to the Spotsylvania County Department of Planning FORUM meeting with the real stakeholders of this county.

You continue to ask US question you already know the answer to, or more importantly should know WHO has the answer. It’s not as if you work in a vaccum.

Since your threat to have me eliminated from the field of bloggers, unless I conform to your rules of thoughtful exchanges and acceptable discourse has turned into a promise, disguised as a “warning” and that I “WILL BE IGNORED FOR THE DURATION” brings to mind a style of communication I thought we gave up, a long time ago, as inappropriate.

For the record, I put my money where my mouth is and all I got back was and is the same kind of silence your selling.

If it’s your wish to leave, or the FLS wants to amend or change it’s blog rules of engagement, just provide me the courtesy of letting me know, one way or the other.

The one thing about where I’ve been or what I’ve said in the past or present has not been challenged by any person or organization as being libled or slandered and all I had going for me was the truth.

How you wish to conduct YOUR BUSINESS will be according to your rules, not mine.

You’ve left enough dialogue on this particular blog subject that needs response, if I could only come up to or get past your standards; 2 divided by 2 still comes up ZERO.

Last, but not the least, please give serious consideration to who or what stands on the other side of a closed door, BEFORE you start knocking.