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More on VRE

Please see the document "Agreement Governing Spotsylvania County’s Admission To Membership In PRTC and Participation In The VRE"

Page 3, Section 2e says basically that if the county withdraws from the agreement, the county can still remain a member of PRTC and collect the gasoline tax to pay off any debt attributed to the county. 

The revised county agreement also states that the VRE Operations Board has until Nov. 30 to approve the revisions and that the county would become a member of VRE Jan. 1.

There is mention elsewhere that a new station in the county and the third track must be done in two years after the agreement is ratified. The document also says that the county would not be obligated to pay prior debt VRE has now. It would only be obligated to pay the county’s share of debt incurred under the county’s participation. 

So, there is no true "exit clause" in any of the documents, but there does seem to be some revised language that adds some protection for the county if it does want to exit. The VRE Board still must UNANIMOUSLY approve any exit clause. 

Post tags:

Permalink: http://news.fredericksburg.com/spotsygovt/2009/08/18/more-on-vre/

More on VRE…….

Here is a memo that explains what the county wants changed in the VRE master agreement.

Here is aone major change:

  •  The revised agreement, if approved, contains a provision that allows the county to charge for parking with two rates: one for Spotsylvania residents and one for non-residents.

  • Scratch the above off the agreement. According to County Attorney Jacob Stroman, the parking issue is moot and has been removed from the agreement. Apparently, this document is changing by the minute.

Then there is the master agreement creating VRE that has the following revisions that need to be approved by VRE:

  • (10) In preparing the annual budget for commuter rail service, the

    OPERATIONS BOARD shall make every effort to maintain as level the total local subsidy for the cost of commuter rail service, subject to the payment requirements of outstanding debt service; however, the amount of the subsidy for individual jurisdictions may vary from year to

    year due to fluctuations in ridership.

  • (11) In preparing the annual budget for commuter rail service, the

    OPERATIONS BOARD shall make every effort to enable those Participating Jurisdictions that have access to dedicated transportation funding sources to rely upon the monies received from those dedicated sources to fund their respective share of the costs of commuter rail service , subject to the payments requirements of outstanding debt service, and not general fund monies.

Those are just some of the proposed changes. I have yet to find anything that provides more details about an exit clause change. Still reading…..

Post tags:

Permalink: http://news.fredericksburg.com/spotsygovt/2009/08/18/more-on-vre/

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  • lgross

    we need to maintain an honest public process
    where the documents that are presented to the
    public are the ones that considered by the BOS.

    Otherwise – how would the BOS expect members
    of the public to make substantative comments on
    THE proposal.

    This is a plain and simple “Good Government”
    issue here.. IMHO.

  • MAVRICKinc

    the Free Lance-Star has yet to post a copy of the “STAFF INTERNAL WORKING DRAFT” NOT REVIEWED BY OPERATIONS BOARD or COMMISSIONS, of the Agreement Governing Spotsylvania County’s ADMISSION To Membership in PRTC and Participation in the VRE; 11 pages long and revised in red after after MULTIPLE REVISIONS dating to July 17, 2006 revised by VRE March 26, 2009, further revised by Spotsylvania County April 17, 2009 (before posting the VRE Master Agreement on the FAMPO website, for the first time, on May 22, 2009, for Public inspection)… further revised by Spotsylvania July 30, 2009…VRE redline August 6, 2009-UPDATED…and further revised by Spotsylvania County AND VRE on August 13, 2009.

    Simply said, and acknowledged by BOS’s Connors, Pitts and Skinner at last nites meeting have a lot at stake. They have to be reelected.

    The strategy is that VRE has until November 30, 2009 to agree or turn down Spotsaylvania County’s proposal’s for change in the VRE Master Agreement’s language and contractual constraint’s on Spotsylvania County’s future budget mandates, AFTER the election results for Pitts and Skinner are made , or not.

    After attending last night’s meeting, I was taken by the fact Supv. Pitts, Skinner and Connor spent entirely to much time and shoutout claiming to represent the interest of the County’s Citizens, and they were impowered to make any decision they want to by virtue of the seat they hold on the BOS. It sounded as if they were making themselves out to be rulers of their domain, with question.

    This observation made its way to the parking lot, when we were to witness a BOS member shouting down a conversation with two Spotsylvania County citizens, who were attempting to engage the Board member in conversation. He turned his back on the conversation, started for his car, across the parking lot, while still shouting out there was only one way to go, and that was exclusively his decision to make.

    Where I come from, we call this the kind of exchange you would encounter with the likes of a bully.

    the C-500 showed up in adequate numbers and made it abundantly clear their agenda is a green thing and still wrapped in this fuzzy world of Utopia and their published principles. When it came to the VRE Master Agreement, they couldn’t bring themselves to admit their agenda was confined to platitudes, and a gas-tax they tried to sell to the public months ago, but without any acknowledgement that a VRE Master Agreement even existed, much less share the unforegiving contract language, constraint’s and invasion of this County’s annual budgeting process.

    If anyone were ever to attend a scheduled FAMPO meeting, a Board of Supervisor’s Meeting
    and the County’s Landuse agendas, including the Planning Commission, and scheduled buildout of TRICORD and Cosner’s development strategy, you might better understand the consequences of a cattle call. I can assure you, that from one GROUP to the next, you will not run into a single stranger or an original thought, that’s not otherwise covered with those who wish to rule.

    When TRICORD builds out Summit Crossing and New Post there should be about 7,000 or more new high density homes surrounding the Lee’s Hill designated train station, plus the high density population Cosner intends to surround his hospital with; aka Urban Development Area F, which the Planning Commision adopted.

    Rt 17 will be relocated. It will intersect with I-95 just south of Massaponax, over Cosner land, although Cosner prefers to relocate the Interstate 95 interchange some place else, but still across his land. He’s apparently in the process of engaging the General Assembly to accomplish this end, along lines suitable to Supv. Skinner and Planning Commissioner Mary Lee Carter.

    Rt 17 will become a major transportation route to the east coast to the delight of the trucking industry, vacationing and daily traffic loads which will be astronomical. However, we won’t have to worry about that since the relocated Rt 17 will have no access by the general population in Lee’s Hill. The bridge under construction over I95, and extension of Jackson Parkway and the roads to Mr. Cosner’s hospital, will allow access by the local population to the current Rt 17 to the train station train at Crossings, where VRE has already taken up residence.

    Put this along side the Mallard Landing project that was approved by this BOS without considering the low ball proffers of TRICORD being anywhere close to adequate, reducing construction FEES by 25% and allowing the development and construction community to resume hiring but only if you are a Spotsylvania County Resident. Caroline County is following right behind Spotsylvania, so they can start building on all that open land (not the AP Hill side) so they can build out their side of the intersection of Rt 2 and 17

    Apparently Hazel Land Companies, Inc. has dibs on building out the BATTLEFIED DISTRICT; location Empire Court/ Jackson Square PHASE II.

  • lgross

    was to separate out the policy issues from the mechanics of a credible process for
    considering policy changes and inititiatives.

    You really cannot have a legitimate consideration of issues if the process itself is not
    trustworthy and that is what the previous BOS had degraded to doing.

    They’d get together .. often in direct violation of the meeting laws, figure out what they
    were going to do then tried to follow the process.

    The only problem was .. they didn’t even follow a process.. it was Ad Hoc and things like
    changing the content of what was to be considered at a public hearing was simply a “nit”.

    Unfortunately, it appears to me that this BOS and it’s legal people are falling back to
    previous bad habits.

    And C500 is apparently clueless or don’t consider it a problem.

    Believe me. It’s a problem.

    It really is an arrogant attitude to have a public hearing and tell the public to come out
    and comment on a proposal – that is different from the proposal that the BOS is actually
    considering.

    this is one of those things that the longer I think about it – the madder I get so I better
    shut up before really ugly thoughts turn into words.

  • MAVRICKinc

    Larry: Just a thought, but why don’t you take all that anger surrounding your mouth and put it to good use. Homework assignments will be required much along the same lines I take to follow your shared websites to see what the value of your knowledge, political savy and ferocious appetite for accountability, is worth.

    To do otherwise would be a discredit to your battle field presence, postured dialogue, and very real knowledge , but my own credibility, for what ever that’s worth.

    The “Fawn Lake Four” should add some perspective on what is and is not, as you clinch your teeth to keep the words from coming out of your mouth.

    When this kind of anger stands in front of me, I either get a little heart burn, a tad measure of indegestion or a bad case of gas that can be expelled just about anywhere with the utmost discretion.

    Let your anger go to your head, you will have only constructed a wall in your mind, pitting you against yourself. Keep the channels of communication open. It’s really is the only way you can best determine where your next step is going to take you. Get angry and you’ll just be walking around with blinders on.

    The best thing of all, and without the blinders on you can do one of your 360s, never take a step forward, until you have completed your review of all points on your compass, and you will never have a second thought about where to put your mouth and the words you feel should be expressed; even in the halls of polite conversation.

    I’ve got to go. The Agriculture Forestal & PDR committees meet at 3 this afternoon. I’ll get back but will confess you are on the right track. Just don’t let anger slow you down.

    The hole that’s being dug on the VRE agenda is going to be around for a very long time, and we’re not going to go anywhere any time soon. UNLESS the Sheriff comes around and orders us out of our house, at the direction of the Lee’s Hill Community Association and the Greens’ Townhouse Association. Coni and I like to think HOA’s are not all they pretend to be, but lead us by the nose by THEIR RULES and a smile you could drive a truck thru. Take care.

  • MAVRICKinc

    Larry: Just a thought, but why don’t you take all that anger surrounding your mouth and put it to good use. Homework assignments will be required much along the same lines I take to follow your shared websites to see what the value of your knowledge, political savy and ferocious appetite for accountability, is worth.

    To do otherwise would be a discredit to your battle field presence, postured dialogue, and very real knowledge , but my own credibility, for what ever that’s worth.

    The “Fawn Lake Four” should add some perspective on what is and is not, as you clinch your teeth to keep the words from coming out of your mouth.

    When this kind of anger stands in front of me, I either get a little heart burn, a tad measure of indegestion or a bad case of gas that can be expelled just about anywhere with the utmost discretion.

    Let your anger go to your head, you will have only constructed a wall in your mind, pitting you against yourself. Keep the channels of communication open. It’s really is the only way you can best determine where your next step is going to take you. Get angry and you’ll just be walking around with blinders on.

    The best thing of all, and without the blinders on you can do one of your 360s, never take a step forward, until you have completed your review of all points on your compass, and you will never have a second thought about where to put your mouth and the words you feel should be expressed; even in the halls of polite conversation.

    I’ve got to go. The Agriculture Forestal & PDR committees meet at 3 this afternoon. I’ll get back but will confess you are on the right track. Just don’t let anger slow you down.

    The hole that’s being dug on the VRE agenda is going to be around for a very long time, and we’re not going to go anywhere any time soon. UNLESS the Sheriff comes around and orders us out of our house, at the direction of the Lee’s Hill Community Association and the Greens’ Townhouse Association. Coni and I like to think HOA’s are not all they pretend to be, but lead us by the nose by THEIR RULES and a smile you could drive a truck thru. Take care.

  • lgross

    Hey Mav… how come you always gotta use 500
    words express a single thought?

  • MAVRICKinc

    Larry: if I were to communicate in soundbites on a “single subject, then all you would get out of me is “Vote NO on VRE.”

    How far do you think this simple statement would add to a single subject, that’s surrounded by multiple flaws and found in a world of many lies, distortions, postured discourse, and a real fear of being found out.

    So, if you’re talking or addressing the issue of VRE and whether to join or not, needs more than a sound bite.

    Take for instance why the C 500 chose to sell a gas-tax, without any mention of the VRE Master Agreement and its cruel and unforgiving language and consequences to the citizens of Spotsylvania County.

    How’s that for single subject and dimensional thinking.

    Why did the C500 underwrite Supv. Marshall’s “3 acre lot proposal”? Or should we just conclude the C500 is working in OUR best interest.

    Simply said, if you’re” just going to read the headlines…”VRE upbeat about Spotsy” or “Supervisors OK VRE Membership” or the Free Lance-Star’s Paul Akers’ latest take on who counts and does not count in Spotsylvania County ( 8/21/09 “VRE: Logan’s Run” then why should any of us look any further?

    Spotsylvania County chooses to be nothing more than a foregone conclusion and being led by the nose to the tune of whatever the development and construction communities and THEIR elected officials, want to do and are doing it without the least concern THEIR vision has or contributes to a single subject other than money.

    So, you get to ask why so many words are put on the boards. I get ask you why not.

    If the read is too burdensome to take, let us all follow your train of thought, which can’t be any bigger than a headline.

    When you are able to put the Spotsylvania County BOS, FAMPO, VRE, CSX (All its affiliations), the consequense of poorly designed business models, Urban Development Areas, Zoning, County Comprehensive Plan and Ordinances, Land-Use development agendas currently on the drawing boards,FOCUS group meetings that no one is allowed to attend, except Mary Lee Carter and one other and selected Planning Commission member, the Harrison Road Connector monument that just failed (it will be coming back, better disguised than last), the invested role of the Battlefield District and their intended landuse agenda, MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, YOU will get a better idea why 500 words are needed to better describe what’s not being said or disclosed to the people of Spotsylvania County.

    Stick to your single assaults, That way you can stop at the headline, and let anyone else read on, but only if they want to know anything about the single subject of “democracy” and why it has so many edges and dimensions. Shouting it out will never be enough or even the answer.

    I’ve completed my homework assignment for the day. How is yours coming, or are you having problems with that first sentence and soundbite?

    This kitchen is going to get a lot hotter. 500 words a day is like writing about the VRE Master Agreement, one page at a time.

    VRE is just one piece of the puzzle. If you don’t wish to complete the whole puzzle, perhaps you should sit in the back of the bus and work on your next scrabble word…66% of what is allowed on this blog should give everyone a breather from reality. Yours or mine. Doesn’t really matter.

  • lgross

    fewer words my man and new ones. don’t find the repetition very productive.

    I’m ready to join those who would ask Dan to cut the
    word limit back to what it used to me.

    so lets BOTH strives for less bandwidth.

  • MAVRICKinc

    are now a done deal. What more is there to say.
    Or, how would YOU prefer I communicate?

    If you have the votes with Dan, his editor and the Free Lance-Star to return this sight back to 512 characters, then I suggest you vote now.

    It’s sort of like today’s democracy; 3 minutes at the podium or you will be asked to leave the room. Then, there’s your version of free speech that’s confined to a box of 512 characters or less, if you only have room enough for more soundbites.

    Let’s let the Free Press make the decision. Your tidbits of emotion or my efforts to inform and engage what’s really going on behind your closed doors.

    If I’m not mistaken you have already laid claim to being the only person responsible for Dan’s success in bringing more blog comments at his sight than any other blogger at the FLS. You should be very proud of the work and words you have brought to this blog site and Dan’s credit.

    I see now that you and Gramps prefer to talk amongst yourselves and that you’ll pick what gets to be said on this blog site, and not.

    As soon as I get my DVD copy of last Tuesdays staging of the VRE agenda, I’ll make sure we get you a copy, or maybe Dan can help you out with his copy.

    You have to admit, democracy is shrinking, almost to the point we can barely recognize it.
    Maybe, if we stood YOU up in front of democracy, your shadow alone might obscure any similance that democracy even or ever existed.

    So, what is the next thing you want or do not want to discuss beyond your next single subject.? Send me a list and I’ll see if I can come down to your standards of communication and make intelligent soundbites so our readers don’t have to strain themselves beyond 512 characters and this fuzzy feeling they have been well informed, without even knowing what’s being discussed. The last 30 years should be example enough.

    Let me know when your vote and that of the FLS is cast. It’s been an interesting run, and I have so much more homework from which informed decisions can be made.

    However, the puppet masters apparently forgot to string me or my mouth up for the staging of their next drama. Since you’re on such a short leash, I have no idea whether you will make your way to stage center or not. Maybe it would be best that you use the stage mike, and bark at every one from behind the curtains; stage left or right doesn’t really matter.

    Keep me posted on vote count.

  • gramps

    what is it you do not get about the statement that you can not “joust” with windmills?

  • MAVRICKinc

    Just for a moment I thought there was a reply to be made, but why waste another shovel of dirt.

    Any votes come on your version of democracy, let me know.

  • lgross

    Well Gramps.. I’m restrained a bit as I do not
    come at this issue with entirely clean hands if you
    know what I mean…

    so I have this quandary.. because Dan originally
    expanded the allowed number of words because
    of my complaint

    little did Dan and I know just how serious a
    tactical error that such an accommodation might
    turn out to be…..

    but then.. I would not be surprised some day to
    see several posts that say – would BOTH of you
    SHUT UP….

    so… if that day comes.. I’ll surely be
    contrite….as well as take some responsibility for
    creating the problem…

  • MAVRICKinc

    It’s was of interest to note Larry, Gramps, Dan and the Free-Lance Star had a “STRATEGY” when you (plural) expanded the size of this blog site.

    Since you (plural) can’t share what you wished for, I can readily assume we’ve been opening more doors than you guys ever thought possible.

    BULLY’s 101: Never apologize. Contrition is like a two edged sword…it swings both ways. It gives but also takes away. So, watch out for what you wish for, including the consequences.

    If I’m not mistaken, some noble County/ Regional residents have asked that we shut up long before we ever got here. It’s my firm belief they push off the field of play for want of a stronger constitution and failure to do their homework.

    Since the bully-pit twosome are grounded in addressing one subject at a time, why don’t you (plural) provide us with your list of issues, and we’ll take them one at time, and then take the next issue up, just to see how they might be connected to the other, and at the end we could see what all these issues amount to, how they’re connected and what WE get for tying all these issues together.

    You will recall I asked before now to supply US with YOUR list.

    I gave you OUR list last Friday, but have received no response.

    OUR list is supported by reams of public documentation, transcripts, video and a paper trails that connects them all:

    1. Spotsylvania County’s BOS, County staff, Commissions and Committees.

    2. FAMPO (shadow County Government), VRE, CSX, Metro rail, Amtrak, MARC, Metro-bus, Commonwealth of Virginia and the entire rail train network. When 4 out of seven Board Supervisors choice to join VRE, WE will soon see the baggage it comes with.

    3. Spotsylvania County’s business models in planning and spending.

    4.Spotsylvania County’s Planning Commission and Department, who continue to keep the Free Press and county citizens from attending FOCUS meetings conducted by the real stake holders in Land-use development of Spotsylvania County, County Planning Department and its Commissions.

    5.Spotsylvania County’s/ Planning Commissions Urban Development Area designations, including the VRE rail station, that currently has NO appropriate INFRASTRUCTURE plans to get the general public to the station over Rt 17. One caveat: the planning not to financial consequnces have been on the drawing board for years.

    6. TRICORD’s development and construction agendas. We can start with Supvs.Skinner, work our way to Pitts, Connors and Logan, and Hugh Cosner, to see what WE are going to get back for OUR money in Spotsylvania County, Battlefield and Lee’s Hill Districts.

    7. Spotsylvania County’s Ordinance, Landuse, Zoning and Comprehensive Plan changes being endorsed and executed over the past two years with the consent of the BOS, not its citizens or constituents, less the input of 12 committees the BOS thought to be too burdensome to make informed decisions for Spotsylvania County and THEIR new vision.

    Since this is not rocket science, nor the work of evildoers, let the facts, factoids, documented public paper trail and what comes with just a very small part of democracy, and making your own mind up. If you vote by proxy you can only get back what you paid for; a single vote and one elected official who speaks only to a number, a majority vote and THEIR version of what they declared 2 and 4 years ago to be the right thing to do.

    Informed sources call this nothing more than a “cattle call”; aka the cost of three meals and a cot. Anyone viewing this blog site should not be offended but at least embarrassed by the fact they gave up their rights 30 years ago, and look for the same bait they were provided then.

    In the scheme of things, we’re just a commodity, bought an sold as we were hundreds and thousands of years ago. Simply said, we’re just another form of slavery, but can’t bring ourselves to believe that Darwin was right in all his observations. Read “Lord of the Flies” if you have any doubts on where wqe’re going and where we’re going to wind up.

    Not to worry though, everything has been arranged. YOU will get nothing more than what you’ve planted and your return on investment.
    Try taking that to market and see what you get for your money.

    If you are afraid of being found out, you should be very afraid of what you wish for.

    Larry/Gramps: it’s not really about the size of this blog site that matters. It’s all about the imput and what the issues are all about whether its confined to 512 characters or not.

    You guys really should do your homework first before opening your mouth. Your script has already been published long before WE ever took the field in 1776.

    You have my list, so what are YOU and you’re affiliations with County Government going to do about it?

  • lgross

    I have to say this. When I watch/listen to BOS meetings, I am
    relieved that I only have to listen for 3 minutes and I do believe that
    the 3 minutes is as much about others having to sit through it as it is
    about the person who gets the 3 minutes.

    Some folks are excellent at making their points – to the point that
    they don’t even need the 3 minutes…. others… not so much

    and the reason it is a “hard” 3 minutes is that 98% of people, if
    asked to confine their remarks to 3 minutes, would do so – but the
    other 2% would ignore it and proceed to punish everyone else in
    attendance with their views, imposing themselves on others.

    So the 3 minutes is not only about the speakers “right” but it’s also
    about the captive audience’s rights to not have to listen to blow hards
    who are taking advantage of the hapless listeners.

    When you use your 3-minutes up and have not made your point and
    get asked to sit down – most folks are relieved – as opposed to sitting
    on the edge of their seats waiting for more words.

    I find both the 3 minute limit and the 512 character limits to be a
    challenge but I support the intent because as much as I like to
    blather on sometimes – I do realize that others may not get quite as
    much enjoyment of it but more than that – if the listeners feel that
    one is a blowhard – all those good points are lost because they ignore
    you… and for good reason….IMHO.

    people have got to want to listen to you and if you do stuff to cause
    them to not want to listen to you then what is the point of that?

    it would be like using 3 minutes at the meetings and everyone uses
    that time to do other things until the meeting “resumes”.

    no?

  • MAVRICKinc

    I gave you my list so where is yours?

    Please feel free to take as many cheap shots as you wish. I’ll spend my 3 minutes at the podium, as I have since 2005. Just because you’re so board with my presentations to the BOS, you might want to consider changing the channel or step out side for 3 minutes, or mute your TV.

    I don’t know about everyone else’s threshold for listening to my presentations, nor do I care, but they have the same equipment as you to disconnect from any form of discourse running contrary to there own.

    Since you and Gramps are the only ones showing up on this blog site, I think it’s reasonable to conclude you (plural) have nothing more to offer other than a one way conversation you’re having with yourself.

    I also notice you (plural) are not responsive to serious questions being laid at your doorstep. Why is that?

    While making your way to the front seat, you might want to check this site over for your previous comments and see where you stand in the crowd or concrete. There really isn’t much that has changed over the last 15 years. Apparently, all you have to offer is an agenda of “business as usual, and confined to one way conversation with yourselves. Let the record speak for itself.

  • lgross

    Mav – I don’t know your questions because I’m
    not going to plow through your verbal trivia to
    find them.

    Be short and concise and specific with your
    question and I’ll respond but I’m not about to try
    to discern them in the current firehose delivery.

    and you’d be wrong. Some folks at the BOS
    cannot easily get up and leave and then come
    back after you’re done…

    the purpose of the 3 minutes is for you to
    attempt to communicate some point to the
    others … otherwise you’re accomplishing little
    more than standing on the front steps …

    your attitude about your 3 minutes says volumes
    about what you think of those who are listening
    and they do get your message.

  • MAVRICKinc

    I’m sorry, did you have something to say? I can’t hear you from all the way across the other side of the room. You don’t have to look anything up. You haven’t so far, so why would I expect you to do anything more than what you have already; zero.

    I really have better things to do with my time. Your emotion and cheap shots best describes what you bring to the table. So far, nothing more and nothing less.

    If you ever have something to contribute let me know, or discuss it with Hap Connors, Ben Pitts or Gary Skinner. They seem to have all of your answers, and if not, you can always continue to talk to yourself.

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